Curse

Phades · Jun 02, 2006, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

My warrior using standard gladiators (80AL) + shield (AL16) gets vs 96AL vs. all attacks, and 116 vs. physical attacks. Then there's Watch-Yourself (+20AL) and Dolyak Signet(~+38) for +58AL on top of the above. Now factor in Ascalon/Knight's armor piece (-2 damage reduction), superior absorbtion rune (-3), and a dual-DR shield (-2 stance/-2 enchant), and you get -9 consistent DR per attack. This translates into a lot of zero-dmg hits whenever my warrior tanks <= L20 mobs.

Assassins, even with a +10 to +15 armor upgrade, will never approach the armor levels and sheer damage mitigation warriors are capable of.

Add +5 for the defensive mod and you have the same numbers i was working with. The difference is 11 AL and -7 damage reduction against all sources, but physical. Watch yourself is a flat 20, regardless of who uses it, but dolyak has some play to it. The point is, the assassin setup that way is only 11 AL less and should only be in combat long enough to deliver the combo before bowing out to avoid attracting hate. The things that willl smoke the assasssin, will also smoke just about every other character out there due to the damage buffing to the unique/boss monsters.

The assassin is not a warrior and should not tank. Just use standard tactics employed before factions and treat the assassin like a caster. The difference is that, the assassin is not a dot character like a warrior or a ranger, it is a spike character. Thats it really. Just try running around with the AL90 and use the single tank strategy, just dont do it on a mission where you are trying to hold out against waves of monsters from 3 different directions or getting popped with dark chain lightning and come back and say that it doesn't work out good enough. In all likelyhood you will take some hits, but it wont be as bad as wearing the +energy armor, or the +hp armor, or whatever was the preference before realize that the assassin is a "soft" target.

lord_shar · Jun 02, 2006, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Add +5 for the defensive mod and you have the same numbers i was working with. The difference is 11 AL and -7 damage reduction against all sources, but physical. Watch yourself is a flat 20, regardless of who uses it, but dolyak has some play to it. The point is, the assassin setup that way is only 11 AL less and should only be in combat long enough to deliver the combo before bowing out to avoid attracting hate. The things that willl smoke the assasssin, will also smoke just about every other character out there due to the damage buffing to the unique/boss monsters.

The +5 defensive dagger grip should not be mandatory equipment due to deficient armor design. Furthermore, physical damage constitutes the bulk of all melee damage sustained. This is why warrior gladiator's armor remains the best overall tank armor of choice, bonus energy notwithstanding.

Rangers are soft targets as well, but they have conditional +30AL vs. elements, and this can go an additional +15AL higher depending on the chosen ranger armor. My ranger has never sustained damage at the same pace as my assassin despite going into point-blank range to body-block for agroed monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

The assassin is not a warrior and should not tank. Just use standard tactics employed before factions and treat the assassin like a caster. The difference is that, the assassin is not a dot character like a warrior or a ranger, it is a spike character. Thats it really. Just try running around with the AL90 and use the single tank strategy, just dont do it on a mission where you are trying to hold out against waves of monsters from 3 different directions or getting popped with dark chain lightning and come back and say that it doesn't work out good enough. In all likelyhood you will take some hits, but it wont be as bad as wearing the +energy armor, or the +hp armor, or whatever was the preference before realize that the assassin is a "soft" target.

Based on recent observations, assassins are now the least-desired party member (outpacing the mesmer as most-hated-in-pve from what I've seen) due to their incredibily high mortality rates. The reputation has been earned. Even using shadow-stepping abilities with a 4-second AoD delivery window, why is my assassin with end-game L70 armor, 521 life, and critical-defenses active (72% block) returning at <= 50% life after every teleport-sortie? I can't attribute this to lack-of-skill... not with a 4-second teleport trip. Watch-Yourself cannot be activated without initial adrenelin, so it won't be up during the initial attack. Yes, I've tried a +5 defensive pommel, and the 12.5% damage mitigation doesn't help enough to be effective.

Ring of Fire was quite an eye opener. Another friend of mine gave up on using the assassin since no one will accept the character in groups anymore. The average assassin has very slim chances of joining PUG elite mission groups.

Need I go on?

PS: Prior to the Shadow Refuge nerf, the assassin was self-sustaining and feasible. Post-SR brings us today's present scenario.

Chikara · Jun 02, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

they nerfed temple strike
they nerfed shadow refuge
they nerfed Aura of displacement
they nerfed Golden phoenix..

next?

We are not going to be useful just because Palm strike can do 80damage or because sometimes we can heal ourselves 110life or because we can use more often deadly arts skill... come on Anet... wake up
They HAVE TO compare sins with other classes... look at others skills, they can break us down so easly i mean...

Karmaniac · Jun 02, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

There is no conspiracy. Nobody is in charge. It's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan.

From one of my favourite movies if you can name from which more kudos to you.

As was pointed out by Phades assassin is in essence a caster. But moreover it has some resemblance to warrior too. Therefore it has the weaknesses of both but only limited ways to cope with them. For example if you're using 4 skills to deliver your combo you're left with 4 slots. One for rez/cap and you're down to 3. These 3 slots are to ensure your safety: healing, evasion, teleporting, running, hex/condition removal, energy management etc. ATM self-healing is flawed. Way of perfection is less effective than the recently buffed vigorous spirit. The other choices are no better working erratically at best. Same goes for critical defenses. It's quite impossible to keep it up reliably for any amount of time without wild blow.

But the thing I feel needs fixing badly is combo system. Would it really throw the game off-balance if you could still hit your target even if your lead/off-hand was evaded/blocked? Come on we're already getting out skinny asses handed out to us.

Summa summarum:

1. Better self-heal/damage mitigation (crit defenses at 7 secs for example)
2. More reliable spike

Phades · Jun 03, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

The +5 defensive dagger grip should not be mandatory equipment due to deficient armor design. Furthermore, physical damage constitutes the bulk of all melee damage sustained. This is why warrior gladiator's armor remains the best overall tank armor of choice, bonus energy notwithstanding.

Rangers are soft targets as well, but they have conditional +30AL vs. elements, and this can go an additional +15AL higher depending on the chosen ranger armor. My ranger has never sustained damage at the same pace as my assassin despite going into point-blank range to body-block for agroed monks.

You are comparing a tank in melee against melee damage and a ranger who specializes in mitigating ranged damage (elemental) and possessing some of the best defensive stances, to a profession to which many use with only AL 70.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

Even using shadow-stepping abilities with a 4-second AoD delivery window, why is my assassin with end-game L70 armor, 521 life, and critical-defenses active (72% block) returning at <= 50% life after every teleport-sortie?

At AL 90 you reduce that damage by another 40%. Use it and love it, you will not be as ripped up as before. Its just like how warriors in full suits of knights and ascalon armor were critized or the choice of bringing full platemail.

Also, depending on the teleport location, the warrior can activate watch yourself on your arrival. Yeah, that requires teamwork, but it is a team game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

I can't attribute this to lack-of-skill

I am not accusing you of anything, just suggesting you try it before you dissmiss it.

lord_shar · Jun 03, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

You are comparing a tank in melee against melee damage and a ranger who specializes in mitigating ranged damage (elemental) and possessing some of the best defensive stances, to a profession to which many use with only AL 70.

No defensive stances were being used by my ranger during previously listed scenario. It occured in Tomb of Primeval Kings PvE, where Chaos Fingers renders all dodge/evasion useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

At AL 90 you reduce that damage by another 40%. Use it and love it, you will not be as ripped up as before. Its just like how warriors in full suits of knights and ascalon armor were critized or the choice of bringing full platemail.

How does an assassin get the initial 4 adrenelin to activate Watch-Yourself when they are at 50% life in less than 4 seconds despite having 72% block? Please keep in mind that I am refering to high level encounters with L24+ monsters, not standard mid-game content.

EDIT: Yes, I've tried Watch-Yourself... it's not enough...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Also, depending on the teleport location, the warrior can activate watch yourself on your arrival. Yeah, that requires teamwork, but it is a team game.
I am not accusing you of anything, just suggesting you try it before you dissmiss it.

1) Assassin players cannot force other warriors to carry Watch-Yourself just because the assassin class' personal armor levels are deficient

2) Assassins are treated as high-priority targets like monks, so they immediately draw agro the moment the tanking player moves.

3) Assassin self healing is insufficient for any high level pve encounter, thereby inherently over-taxing healing monks the moment the assassin gains agro.

I'm not denying that +20AL via Watch-Yourself isn't useful. However, the +5 defense dagger grips and Watch-Yourself are not enough to overcome the assassin class's present mortality problems. If you don't believe me, try finding a non-guild group with your assassin in the Deep or Warrens. If you don't have access to those zones, try completing the Ring of Fire missions if you haven't already done so. You might start understanding some of my listed concerns...

Maellus · Jun 03, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Assassins do not need exta armor for their defenses. What they need is more ways to avoid or reduce damage through skills. Maybe even throw on a perk for shadowstepping into a mob that reduces or negates the damage from the next attack. Give it a max duration of 5 or so seconds and we're in business (if you need an explanation, put it up to suprise or some remaining ethereal vapors obscuring the target).

Not to mention the range of shadow stepping to a target is within normal spell range, which means that if the monks you're going for are where they're supposed to be (just within spell range of the frontliners) you would actually have to deal with the melee fighters (perhaps taking a few hits when going in for the step). Come on! You can return to a point using a shadow step from the whole radar's distance away, yet you can't move farther towards an opponent than the aggro circle? It's not like anything is blocking your path!

I also find it strange that a caster's weapon does 3-5 more damage than that of an assassins, even if the wand/staff attacks slower. Casters hardly rely on their weapon's damage, azn's do. Not to mention a sword attacks at the same speed and does somewhere between 5-8 more damage on average. Assassins should attack either attack faster or get 9-19 as max. Attacking faster would increase the number of critical hits in a fixed period of time, meaning a higher effectiveness of skills that rely on crits. Also increasing the damage or speed of daggers would help to improve the damage down time between combos.

Maybe instead of altering the daggers themselves, the devs could increase the critical rate or double strike rate (maybe perhaps both). Maybe crit chance increasing it by 1.25-1.5% per rank of critcals could help balance the level differences in PvE (as messing with the game engine for assassins alone is kinda messy not to mention stupid). That would yield a bonus of 20-31.5% at rank 16 rather than just 16%. Or maybe they could increase the rate of double strike chance increase per rank to 2.5, which would yield at most a 40% to double strike (60% with locust's fury), which would technically increase the attack speed to .95 per strike (without locust's fury, .83 with). Either of these I would take over straight damage because there is still the chance your opponent can luck out and take less damage (or run out of luck and take more) than usual.

lord_shar · Jun 03, 2006, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maellus

Assassins do not need exta armor for their defenses. What they need is more ways to avoid or reduce damage through skills.
...<SNIP>...

The problem with the above suggestion:

1) lots of extra coding required
2) more skill slots consumed for damage reduction. Assassins already need 4+ attack skills to perform most dagger combinations, leaving fewer buttons for other utility functions like healing, condition delivery, etc...

Extra armor, whether standard or conditional, is the easiest solution to implement without the coding overhead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maellus

I also find it strange that a caster's weapon does 3-5 more damage than that of an assassins, even if the wand/staff attacks slower. Casters hardly rely on their weapon's damage, azn's do. Not to mention a sword attacks at the same speed and does somewhere between 5-8 more damage on average. Assassins should attack either attack faster or get 9-19 as max. Attacking faster would increase the number of critical hits in a fixed period of time, meaning a higher effectiveness of skills that rely on crits. Also increasing the damage or speed of daggers would help to improve the damage down time between combos.
...<SNIP>...

I agree here. Dagger damage should have been at least near wand damage, just to keep weapon types in perspective. If the extra damage output due to doublestriking was ANET's primary concern, then why bother with the randomness of doublestriking percentages at all? Why not just give daggers a faster attack rate to offset their lower base damage?

Sometimes, the best solution is the least complicated option.

Miakoda · Jun 03, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

"Sometimes, the best solution is the least complicated option."

Simplicity in all things.

Phades · Jun 03, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

If you don't have access to those zones, try completing the Ring of Fire missions if you haven't already done so. You might start understanding some of my listed concerns...

I would not begin to ask for change based solely on the assumption that assassins should survive monsters designed to defeat stock warrior AL. Also, alot of damage is derived from AL ignoring sources, such as degen, deep wound, physical attack bonuses, shadow damage, etc.

Posessing the armor and grip i described raises your 4s health problem from below 50% to below 70%. Should you teleport in when the warrior used watch yourself and possessed the armor i described, your health problem goes from below 50% to below 80%. As far as healing is concerned, you can always opt for using healing from the secondary profession. Rarely do i see good wars, or any other profession for that matter, bring self heals and know what they are doing. The fallback argument of incompotent monks in pugs really isnt a argument for their effects either, its just a sign that some people stink at the game. Kick the person, find another one, then try again. The pve is not that hard and the AL suggestion makes a evasive and fast profession in pvp a hard target like warriors(read nearly unkillable).

Sidra · Jun 03, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

I'm actually dying to get on and use palm strike now because it is the staple of my build (i havent been on in 2 months, stupid school) but other than that, the update was mediocre to me. It's sort of like runescape, where i remember the promise ofplayer owned houses and other things within the year, and now 3 years later we got it. I think we just need to wait.

Also- having critical strikes ratios ignore levels/armor seems like it would solve a big hunk of the problem. That and some skill boosts would be OK. Armor is fine for me the way it is.

What I want to know is, why arenanet hasn't considered any of these seemingly so far. It's like they wanted to commit suicide in Factions. they stopped at the concepts and decided that was enough, but it wasnot and now we're screwed. bah.

oh, and if this post seems to make no sense, blame this laptop's keyboard. it's screwed.

lord_shar · Jun 03, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I would not begin to ask for change based solely on the assumption that assassins should survive monsters designed to defeat stock warrior AL. Also, alot of damage is derived from AL ignoring sources, such as degen, deep wound, physical attack bonuses, shadow damage, etc.

If this is the case, what should be the standard survival time for melee characters? If the assassin is designed to live only ~6-8 seconds before getting killed by a L28+ mob, then what is the logic of ever brining one in high level PvE zones? I wouldn't mind if that ~8 sec window were increased to 10-12 seconds survival time. Yes, some mobs will always kill in one hit (ever see a Deep Leviathan?), but those are special cases.

Armor ignoring damage treats all classes equally since such attacks remove health at a fixed rate and doesn't scale upward with lower armor values. Most classes have only ~521 to 590 health assuming no temporary skill boosts nor major/superior runes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Posessing the armor and grip i described raises your 4s health problem from below 50% to below 70%. Should you teleport in when the warrior used watch yourself and possessed the armor i described, your health problem goes from below 50% to below 80%. As far as healing is concerned, you can always opt for using healing from the secondary profession. Rarely do i see good wars, or any other profession for that matter, bring self heals and know what they are doing. The fallback argument of incompotent monks in pugs really isnt a argument for their effects either, its just a sign that some people stink at the game. Kick the person, find another one, then try again. The pve is not that hard and the AL suggestion makes a evasive and fast profession in pvp a hard target like warriors(read nearly unkillable).

Three comments:

1) In Hell's Precipice, I noticed that the +5 armor grip didn't help significantly (previously mentioned). Watch Yourself did make a bigger impact, but it isn't usable until 4 adrenelin is gained. By the time that happened, my assassin was already below 50% health and had to retreat for healing.

2) Warriors in PUG's didn't always have Watch-Yourself.

3) My assassin never took the lead charge... that's the warrior's job. Teleport in, combo, teleport out. <= 50% life meant using heal sig (yes, tried it) + Shadow refuge. This forced my assassin to sit out of combat about 8-12 seconds before going back in for 4 seconds, then retreating another 8-12 seconds to self heal. See the problem here? 33% actual combat time, 66% recovery time = hardly optimum as a party member.

I understand you are trying to help, but please believe me when I mention that I've already tried your suggestions with little success. Rephrasing the same suggestions repeatedly accross multiple posts won't improve their effectiveness.

My toons have done most of the end game content except for Urgoz due to Luxon faction. I've finished the game with a warrior, necro, ranger, and assassin -- none of them has had any survival issues except for the assassin. After all, we are talking about a class that is a soft target (L70AL), given high priority target status (like monks), and melee based (close proximity agro). All three factors add up to a frequently-dead PvE party member.

I like the assassin class as a whole, but it has serious survival issues that really need to be addressed. Until a permanent solution is implemented by ANET, temporary player work-arounds will only prolong the assassin's ongoing end-game survival issues.

fallot · Jun 03, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I like the assassin class as a whole, but it has serious survival issues that really need to be addressed. Until a permanent solution is implemented by ANET, temporary player work-arounds will only prolong the assassin's ongoing end-game survival issues.

Very true, but in my opinion, its not the Assassin that needs to be changed. If there was PvE content specifically geared towards Assassins, or containing objectives/situations where an Assassin would be a viable member of a party there would be no complaints.

sinican · Jun 03, 2006, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Very true, but in my opinion, its not the Assassin that needs to be changed. If there was PvE content specifically geared towards Assassins, or containing objectives/situations where an Assassin would be a viable member of a party there would be no complaints.

but it is the assassin that needs changed... reason i say is because as it is right now u make content for the assassin and other classes will breeze through it...

try comparing the assassin to other classes and their survivability and their adaptability with end game missions/quests... the assassin severely lacks the ability to survive as well as any other class...

no one hear is saying that assassin cant pvp...well some do... but it really is an issue of comparing the assassin with other classes in PvE...

the do lack healing capabilities... and with how their 3-4 forced attack chains and their extreme dependance on their atributes a secondary profession for healing makes that assassin no longer an assassin..

during FPE i soon realized this and ultimately because of the difficulty in landing critical strikes and double strikes at that level of the game i found out is wasn't even worht the waste of atr points for them and soon found myself either being a ranger with asn primary or you fill in the blank...

i realte most of the issues directly to the innability to rely on crits and dbl strikes at higher levels... and with so many points invested id expect more... the play throughout the game is fine up until the point where you ae fighting lvl 21+ mobs

everyone just needs to ask themselves a single question... "what is the advantage of having an assassin in the group vs any other class for pve?"

there is NONE, the assassin cannot do anything that some other class cant do(shadow stepping... please these skills only keep you OUT of combat which is an oxymoron to what the assassin is supposed to be doing...Assassinating)... KD's poison bleed spike all replaceably by other classes that have better survivability in combat...

2 warriors is better than 1 war 1 asn
2 eles are better than 1 ele and 1 asn
2 monks...
2 necros...
2 rangers...

comeone there is nothing mysterious about why assassins cant get into pugs unless they are the last resort..

typically the only way i see assassins getting into groups anymore is when the Assassin is the one forming the group.... and ive even been turned down by players because of that... someone join requests then leaves because their is an asn in the party...its rediculous but how can they take blame for plain and simple the smart thing to do is to pick another player class to join the group...

ever realize how 2 of any of the classes usually can make the group better... and then when 2 assassins are together in a group it makes it worse...

fallot · Jun 03, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinican

but it is the assassin that needs changed... reason i say is because as it is right now u make content for the assassin and other classes will breeze through it...

I based that comment on how an Assassin could possibly be used in a GvG. If there was a PvE situation which mimicked the way Assassins are used there, wouldn't they be effective ?

What is it about Assassins that makes them effective in PvP but not PvE ? Isolate whatever it is and incorporate it into PvE and you have Assassin specific content.

lord_shar · Jun 03, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

I based that comment on how an Assassin could possibly be used in a GvG. If there was a PvE situation which mimicked the way Assassins are used there, wouldn't they be effective ?

What is it about Assassins that makes them effective in PvP but not PvE ? Isolate whatever it is and incorporate it into PvE and you have Assassin specific content.

Assassins in GvG are still feasible because everyone is capped at L20. This is not the case for PvE, especially during end-game encounters like Glint, Kanaxai, etc... Even in Ring of Fire, Titan's Sparks and other mobs will cut assassins to 50% health with just 1-2 attacks. Warriors need not worry because their armor levels can reach well beyond the 100's range. Casters and rangers are also fine because their attacks are ranged. Assassins? The get the worst of both worlds... inadequate armor, point-blank melee requirement, and to top it of, high AI-target priority.

Does the above answer your question?

fallot · Jun 03, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Does the above answer your question?

It was a rhetorical question. Everything you wrote was valid though, I agree with it entirely.

lord_shar · Jun 03, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

It was a rhetorical question. Everything you wrote was valid though, I agree with it entirely.

I apologize for not realizing the original question's intent

<-takes off for more cofee..

Phades · Jun 04, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

If this is the case, what should be the standard survival time for melee characters?

Should IW mesmers be considered melee characters for this comparison? If so, that is the profession you should be making this comparison against, not warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Armor ignoring damage treats all classes equally since such attacks remove health at a fixed rate and doesn't scale upward with lower armor values. Most classes have only ~521 to 590 health assuming no temporary skill boosts nor major/superior runes.

That was my point. Not everything is solved by more AL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

1) In Hell's Precipice, I noticed that the +5 armor grip didn't help significantly (previously mentioned). Watch Yourself did make a bigger impact, but it isn't usable until 4 adrenelin is gained. By the time that happened, my assassin was already below 50% health and had to retreat for healing.

Thats fine, but you are making the comparison in parts, instead of as a whole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

3) My assassin never took the lead charge... that's the warrior's job. Teleport in, combo, teleport out. <= 50% life meant using heal sig (yes, tried it) + Shadow refuge. This forced my assassin to sit out of combat about 8-12 seconds before going back in for 4 seconds, then retreating another 8-12 seconds to self heal. See the problem here? 33% actual combat time, 66% recovery time = hardly optimum as a party member.

That is the current bais against them, because they operate like a domination mesmer. The goal of your situation is to survive long enough to achieve the effect desired. Then rinse and repeate the situation as neccacary. Not many of the skills are reusable more often than 12~20s anyway. A couple of the high powered skills are on the slow side as well(fangs/aod). That downtime is largely irrellevant, considering that the majority of the damage dealt is comming from the skills anyway. The auto attack from dagger damage against lv28+ monsters is negligable and arguably pointless, much like wand attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I like the assassin class as a whole, but it has serious survival issues that really need to be addressed. Until a permanent solution is implemented by ANET, temporary player work-arounds will only prolong the assassin's ongoing end-game survival issues.

The problem is they cant boost the profession's survival without having drastic backlash into the pvp realm.

lord_shar · Jun 04, 2006, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Should IW mesmers be considered melee characters for this comparison? If so, that is the profession you should be making this comparison against, not warriors.

What does the above have to do with assassin survival issues?

Not all mesmers use IW. Just about every assassin uses dagger skills. Regardless, I have not observed mesmer mortality rates even approaching assassins in any of the PUG groups I've encountered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

That was my point. Not everything is solved by more AL.

Yes, armor doesn't stop all damage, but doesn't it go without saying?

The bulk of fatal spike damage that kills my assassin is either physical or elemental. Degen and Shadow damage don't produce the 150+ dmg hits I've witnessed from L28+ bosses. A little more base assassin class armor would help buy more survival time, even if just a small boost. Additional +armor levle skills like watch yourself and +5 defense dagger pommels can stack on top of this, thereby providing more damage mitigation that the PvE assassin sorely needs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

..<SNIP>...

That is the current bais against them, because they operate like a domination mesmer. The goal of your situation is to survive long enough to achieve the effect desired. Then rinse and repeate the situation as neccacary. Not many of the skills are reusable more often than 12~20s anyway. A couple of the high powered skills are on the slow side as well(fangs/aod). That downtime is largely irrellevant, considering that the majority of the damage dealt is comming from the skills anyway. The auto attack from dagger damage against lv28+ monsters is negligable and arguably pointless, much like wand attacks.

The problem with accepting high assassin attrition is that it still wears out healer monk energy. Many PUG healers already refuse to group with assassins. If you don't believe me, once again please try joining PUG's in the Deep or Warrens with your assassin, then post your results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

The problem is they cant boost the profession's survival without having drastic backlash into the pvp realm.

Yes, PvE assassin balancing can lead to PvP headaches. However, assassins are still melee classes. Therefore, standard melee defenses will still be effective against them (blind, disenchanting AoD, empathy, etc...). Yes, there will be a learning curve involved since the assassin is still very new, but its PvE deficiencies are already obvious and need serious corrections. Yes, ANET can just leave things as-is, but I know many friends who have already abandoned their assassins due to lack of PvE grouping opportunities being fostered by the current patch.